Hopefully you are here because you have read my article on dementia. If you haven't here is a link to it http://pathwithpaws.com/blog/2010/02/01/dementia-and-anxiety-in-your-older-dog-what-to-do/comment-page-1/#comment-2662 . Let me know your thoughts and questions.
Article on dementia
(54 posts) (8 voices)-
Posted 6 months ago #
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A question from Kelly - I have a shi tzu, 18 years old, struggling with dementia. It is nice to know that others relate. He doesn’t pace through the night, but he does start early (around 3:30 a.m.). I have gotten used to this, but one thing he does quite often is yelp whenever I try to brush him, bath him or clip him. I have stopped taking him to the groomer because he gets so stressed out, but I am having a difficult time accomplishing the task because yelps and jumps around which stresses me out and definitely doesn’t get us very far. I so do not want to hurt him and I don’t know if I am or if he is just scared. He looks awful! :( Any suggestions?
Thank you!
Posted 5 months ago # -
Kelly,
I hope you get other people also offering suggestions.Usually I find this is more of a hypersensitivity to touch secondary to dementia but sometimes it is also pain.
One thought may be to talk to your vet about using a pain medication like Tramadol before trying to groom or brush him. Sometimes these guys are so sensitive to touch and pain meds can sometimes take just a little of the edge off even if it is more sensitivity than pain. Another thought would be to try something like Animal Apawthecary's tranquility tonic to see if a light sedative and calming herbal would also be enough to take the edge off. Worse case if he just continues to resist grooming I would just let him be a little grubby rather then push the grooming.
best wishes,
LenaPosted 5 months ago # -
Perhaps you can provide some help here. I have an 8 year-old shitzu that has recently developed what can only be termed anxiety at night in bed. He sleeps in our bed, and he will, after a couple of hours, jump out of the bed, walk around the bedroom, lay down next to the bed, then walk some more. He may then jump back onto the bed, try to get comfortable for awhile, then repeat the previous. This will go on for an hour or so, then he'll get back onto the bed, and be OK for the rest of the night. I've taken him to the vet, who said it would be unusual for dementia to be the cause at 8 years. He did basic physical, and said all appeared fine. He also excised anal glands, which he said could be causing it. He is not in any pain that we could determine. HE also suggested a half a Prevacid, and to cut down on food close to bedtime. Should he be doing more testing (I wouldn't even know what to suggest)? He sleeps a lot during the day - the vet says this is normal. HE does play with toys, but not as much as before. He is not disoriented, walks and eats OK. ANy ideas what else I should be doing? It's quite disturbing. THanks.
Posted 5 months ago # -
It might be worth having some blood work done at your vet to make sure there is not an infection or some other metabolic problem that is emerging. If it is a problem with his biorhythms being off then melatonin might be helpful. If it is pure anxiety then using a t-shirt or a thundershirt at night would probably be the first thing I would try. I have had some success with night time anxiety with acupuncture so that may also be an option if there is someone is your area who does it. If nothing works then I would talk to your vet about a mild sedative or anti-anxiety drug to give before sleep. I agree he is very young for this to be a dementia issue.
Thanks so much for being the first to post in these forums since I started them up again recently.
best wishes,
LenaPosted 5 months ago # -
Thanks for your response.
I'm having some blood and urine work done on him today, and will pick up some melatonin. He slept thru last night, but was on the way to pacing around 6AM. Stopped him, and he seemed to calm down a bit, but would still frequently raise his head to stare out at nothing for a minute or two, then back down Mid-morning now, and seems OK. I know it's difficult to diagnose via forums/email, but your help is appreciated. I'll pass the word about this forum.Posted 5 months ago # -
In an update to my above posting, I had blood work done at the vets (results should be coming today), and I picked up Melatonin at CVS - the lowest dosage is 3MG tablets. He suggested a half tablet at bedtime and it worked! Slept thru the night. Now I'm not sure it was the tablet, or just that he had been rather active (we had company) before bedtime, but in any case, it was the first good night's sleep that I've gotten in a couple of weeks. I will try again tonight. Again, thanks, and maybe this will help someone else as well.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Wow that's great! I really hope it continues.
Posted 5 months ago # -
I suppose I should ask..is there any limit on how long this can be used? I know that some human OTC meds say only use for 14 days (altho my dr. says that there's really no reason that I can't use the one I use indefinitely). Any such restrictions on Melatonin that you know of?
Posted 5 months ago # -
I have had people give Melatonin to their dogs daily for multiple years without any negative issues. Overall it is a very safe supplement.
Posted 5 months ago # -
(Sorry I realized I started a new topic without meaning to. I guess the following should go here as it's on the dementia topic.)
I have an old girl whom I adopted as an old girl. Only been with me 5 years. She has horrible dementia now. Spins in circles until she falls. I haven't seen her walk straight in weeks. She cries- or should I say screams - at night. She's starting to do so during the day now. On the positive, she does have a voracious appetite. But I have to hold her in place so she can eat. She is about 25 pounds. She was on 5 mg of selegeline (anipryl). When her dose was doubled the symptoms seemed to have gotten worse. The anxiety, the spinning, the screaming... It's heart-wrenching.
I guess I'm looking for a miracle. Is there something I've missed? She wears a sweater and harness. I've not tried the ginko, the fish oil in a while, and all the other things.
I feel like I screwed her up with doubling the dose of selegeline. But her life wasn't that great before that either.
Am I being selfish holding on to her? What more can I do? Dr. McCullough, have you ever seen a dog - not recover - but improve to better quality of life after living like this for several weeks?
I'd appreciate any advice.
I know it's inevitable, her death. But I'd like to give her every opportunity to bounce back to a bit of her old self. But most truthfully, I don't want to feel the excruciating pain of her passing.
Thank you.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Hi Katy,
I think dementia is one of the hardest things to go through with an animal. It is so difficult to see their minds go. I have seen dogs improve but it is hard once they get to that point of circling and screaming. But yes usually you can get some improvement or at least help with their comfort.A few things to think about -
Have you ruled out pain? Sometimes even if she don't have arthritis they can have very bad headaches (in my opinion) and pain meds might help.
It might be worth trying light sedative or talking to your vet about something stronger like valium. I just started working with a dog with very advanced dementia and circling and dosing him with Tranquility Tonic three times a day really helps him be more relaxed and feel better.
I have seen some dogs improve when taken off all dry food and put on a high protein wet food or home made food.
If you have a good alternative medicine practitioner in your area it may be worth a check in with them to see if they have any suggestions http://pathwithpaws.com/blog/2011/12/11/how-to-find-a-good-holistic-vet-to-work-with/ I have had acupuncture and herbs help although usually not completely take away symptoms of more advanced dementia.
If she got worse on the Anipryl could it be that she is having a bad reaction to it? You may want to talk to your vet about stopping it and seeing how she does.
Ginkgo may help but truthfully I haven't seen it help that much with the more advanced circling dementia animals I have worked with.
Finally if you feel like the time is near, I have worked with an very wonderful shaman named Rose DeDan who has helped both my own animals and my clients animals with issues around end of life. She does consultations by phone if you are out of the area. http://reikishamanic.com/
best of wishes and thank you for sharing you questions here
LenaPosted 5 months ago # -
Lena - Thank you for your speedy and thoughtful response.
My little one has been eating raw rabbit. And I did have her on metacam until her anipryl dose was raised then I took her off it. Perhaps the metacam was calming her. Our vet suggested benadryl instead of valium for sedation. I think I should have gone straight to the valium. At this point, concern over drug interaction isn't really a issue for me, unless it makes her more anxious.
I gave her melatonin tonight, no anipryl today, and added back the metacam. She's sleeping sound for the moment. But that can change at 3 in the morning.
I am grateful for your input. You have confirmed what I know in my heart - that whatever progress she makes, if any, will be fleeting.
Aside from the unbearable, awful stuff, it's the few seconds of the wag of her tail and her hearty appetite that tricks my mind into thinking she's still in there. But the reality is, those bits of her left, are just bits. Most of my sweet little dog is gone. I already miss her terribly even though her heart is still beating.
I wish she'd go on her own. The guilt of euthanizing is just another layer of awful.
Thank you for this blog. I did take comfort in reading other posts. Certainly, I am not the first, nor will be the last to go through this.
Wish I were stronger for her.
Katy
Posted 5 months ago # -
Lena - I had my sweet little dog put to sleep this morning. Thank you again for your thoughts on the matter. The decision was easier and the guilt greatly lessened with your experience in the mix of the advice I was getting. The odds of her bouncing back were so miniscule and she was suffering greatly. I know it now especially since the house is so quiet without her here. I had gotten so used to the sounds of her distress. I did right by her.
Thank you again for your honesty.
Katy
Posted 5 months ago # -
I'm sorry Katy. I'm glad that you were able to let her go at the point she was at. It takes a lot of strength to be able to make that decision.
best wishes,
LenaPosted 5 months ago # -
I have read that two Ayurvedic Herbs are great for dogs with dementia. Gotu Kola, and Bacopa. I would like to administer these two herbs to my dog who was recently diagnosed, but I can't find any information anywhere online on how much to administer. She is a 6 lb. shih-tzu. Any help is appreciated.
Posted 2 months ago # -
I'm not skilled in Ayurvedic herbal medicine myself so not sure about dosage. Usually for small dogs with chinese and western herbals I am using about 1/10 of a human dose. There are occasional herbs that can not be safely used in animals so I would also check in about that.
Posted 2 months ago # -
I am so happy to have found this thread and to hear about all the other people struggling with their own sleeplessness as well as their dogs‘ dementia! I have a Welsh Terrier, Hutch, who will be 19 next month. He was creaky but doing relatively well until mid-October, when he had what we assume was a stroke. After that he was virtually paralyzed on his right side for about 4 weeks, then with physiotherapy, magnet therapy, acupuncture, homeopathics, chiropractic treatments and much patience he started being able to stand and walk again, if slowly and not very far. He still has ataxia to the right. For actual walks I take him in a dog buggy and then let him walk when he wants to. He has been eating and drinking well the entire time and generally lets me know when he needs to go out to relieve himself, even if we don't always make it in time (I live in an apartment and have to carry him down 2 flights of stairs). He still sniffs when he is outside, and shows interest in his surroundings, although he is now blind in one eye and can't hear very well. I feed him a home-cooked diet most of the time.
So much for the general background. Right after the stroke he started barking in the middle of the night, which he had never done before. It usually starts between 3 and 5 am. In the past week it has gotten much worse. Before that, if I took him out to pee and gave him something to eat he would fall asleep again. Now he just barks and barks, up to 4 hours. When he barks in the daytime it is always because he needs to go out immediately, and it stops when he gets what he wants. Since I hadn't had a truly decent night's sleep since October I spoke with my vet and we decided to try him on 1/2 a valium tablet for a couple of nights so I can get some sleep. I gave him one last night and he slept 6 hours straight (until 4 am). After that he started barking and eventually fell asleep around 7:30. As of today I am also giving him a homeopathic mixture of Cerebrum and Circulo plus some Bach flowers my vet mixed especially for him.
My vet whose specialty is chiropractic and physiotherapy but also does acupuncture and homeopathic medicine wanted me to ask you if you have any specific acupuncture tips for her (she doesn't speak English, so I have to translate for her) to help with his sleeplessness in the night, and also what you think of Moxa for his situation. She has used it a few times before to boost his energy, but not yet for the sleep problem. We would greatly appreciate any insights you might have as a practitioner of TCM.
Thanks so much in advance. Naturally, I am also happy to hear what anybody else has to say about the sleep problem. Obviously I don't want to give him valium permanently (whatever that means in a dog as old as he is), but I also need to catch up on a bit of sleep before I get sick myself. I am discussing with both my vets (the allopathic and the alternative) the possibility of putting Hutch on Anipryl (here in Germany it is sold as Selgian). He is on amliodipine for high blood pressure and I saw that combining it with Selgian might be a problem. Any thoughts?Posted 2 months ago # -
I'm glad the valium is helping a little. I have had older dogs that are on valium longterm for sleep issues.
Acupuncture points for sleep as a little hard because it can differ dog to dog and depending on the imbalances. The most consistent points I have found are xin shu (heart association points along the bladder meridian) often with kidney points to balance (ming men and shen shu). However if it isn't a heart or kidney imbalance then that will not work.
I would ask your vet about the interactions between Anipryl and amliodipine.
Hope that sleep is better for everyone!
Posted 2 months ago # -
Gee I thought we were going to go crazy until I found your article...We have a 14yr old Dalmatian who is up wandering every 2 hours during the night and has just started to scratch the floor in the same place each time. I tried the melatonin last night and gave her one 3mg tablet as she is only 23kgs - it didn't seem to work so maybe I will try 2 tablets and see how that goes. She is a very active female dog & is taken out to the park most afternoons - I don't think a crate will work as she has never been in one and I am sure that would distress her. I don't like the sound of Valium so hoping the melatonin works
Posted 2 months ago # -
Hi fellow sufferers! I tried giving my dog the valium a few times because I was desperate to get some sleep after almost 5 months of being up several times in the night, but in the event it didn't really help after the first night so I stopped. The acupuncture also hasn't helped with the sleeplessness. My dog has now been on Anipryl for 2 weeks and things are a tiny bit better. He stays up later barking, but then falls asleep until morning. Marisa, you might want to try this for your dog since she is still so active and otherwise healthy. It might keep the dementia from getting worse. I wish I had known about it sooner. I prefer natural remedies, but at this point (he turns 19 tomorrow) I am not worried about long-term health effects.
In case anyone is interested, I had a classical homeopathist (i.e., she only uses individual remedies, no mixtures, and you dissolve them in water and give just a bit from the extremely dilute third glass) come to see him yesterday and she prescribed Chamomilla C30 to be given once last night, and once again this morning if that doesn't help. Then I have to wait a few days and see. It sounds counterintuitive but she really helped him before so I am trying again.
If the melatonin doesn't work you might try Neurexan (manufactured by Heel), a homeopathic mixture available online and perhaps in pharmacies or natural food shops where you live. In a German study comparing it with valerian, it was found to be at least as effective, if not more so. You can give three tablets at intervals during the evening. And you can take them yourself, too, to help you sleep better while your dog is wandering! My dog wandered too before his stroke, but didn't bark. At the time I found the wandering annoying, but now I look back on it fondly because at least it didn't drive my neighbors crazy.
Sorry for writing another long tome!Posted 2 months ago # -
Thanks Pam I am definately going to discuss Anipryl with my vet and might look into the Neurexan - I do agree wandering is better than barking (that would drive us mad!). I gave her 2 melatonin tablets last night and she slept until 3am and then started the wandering and sratching - so a little better but still up 2-3 times during the night. She definately has been worse after she had a bout of Geriatric Vestibular Disease which is an inflamation of the the nerves connecting the ear & the brain - basically 24/7 vertigo and no treatment for it other than confinement and rest - it clears up in about 5-10 days.
Posted 2 months ago # -
One of the things I was told when I was looking for a solution to my dog Charlotte's pacing all night and distress was that her body could not absorb the valium or the melatonin. And there seems to be a pattern of these dogs not being affected by sedatives. It had something to do with their digestion. I was told something like that. Perhaps you can shed light on this problem, Lena? I would have kept my little dog going if I could have soothed her but it all stopped being absorbed/metabolized or something.
My heart goes out to all of you dealing with this. It's very emotionally and physically draining from the lack of sleep.
Posted 2 months ago # -
Sometimes a dog's body does have a problem with processing drugs as they get older. Usually with the Valium it is more of how their body reacts to it. Even in young dogs there can be a large difference in how sedating it is and in about 5-10% of dogs it is actually stimulating instead.
It is so difficult with these older dogs because what works well for one may not for another. The things I have found work in the most dogs are the small meals right before bed and the thundershirt. But I have seen valium, anipryl, melatonin, gingko, acupuncture, other herbals, tranquility tonic, any some of the other things I mention help dogs where the meal and thundershirt did not. And sometimes it is finding the right combination.
It is a very difficult place to be for us human caregivers.
Thank you everyone for adding to this discussion.
Posted 2 months ago # -
I am thinking of you Pam and Marisa. My almost 14 year old lab mix developed doggy dementia in the latter part of last year. His major symptoms were pacing/barking/moaning most of the night from sun up to sun down. He was always hungry, like he'd forget he'd just eaten. history of tummy troubles, so diet was restricted. Because if the other meds he was on, our pharmaceutical options were limited. Xanax and valium didn't help much, as we know, different things work for different dogs. And he was a lab who hated water so go figure ;) in the natural realm I tried bachs, melatonin, the thundershirt, herbal combos with ginkgo.. Over the course of 3 months I spent most nights in the living room since he seemed a bit calmer in there. Left the TV and lights on which sometimes helped. Gave him lots of love and myself peace of mind by trying all the options I could find before deciding to let him go. I applaud your efforts to work with your pup in finding solutions that work. It is hard especially with your own sleep deprivation. I don't have any human children - I keep thinking, this must be what it's like! Sending thoughts of peace to you, Charlotte
Posted 2 months ago # -
Had our visit to the vet and we are trying a diffuser called Adaptil http://www.adaptil.co.uk/ - it releases an 'appeasing pheromone' to help with the anxiety etc. As she said unfortunately there really is no real answer to the issue, we can only try to take the edge off the symptoms. She is researching the option of a human drug for Dementia we are in Australia and what you guys have mentioned might not be available here. She is also looking into a pescription diet from Hills that helps with brain function, only issue is my old girl is on a Royal Canin low fat pescription diet for her fatty blood and the HillS one is quite high in fat content. - I will keep you all updated on our progress.......
Posted 2 months ago # -
Marisa,
I will be curious to hear how you get on with the Adaptil diffuser.Posted 2 months ago # -
Will do Pam - however we have had a set back we had to take the old girl to the vets this morning and she has pneumonia - I thought it was too good to be true that she slept through to 4am! She was perfectly fine last night when we went to bed and obviously went dramatically downhill from then. Hopefully she pulls through Ok...
Posted 1 month ago # -
Oh dear, I am so sorry to hear that, Marisa. Healing vibes are winging their way from Germany to Australia!
Posted 1 month ago # -
I just wanted to report back that the selegiline (Anipryl) finally seems to be working. Hutch still doesn't sleep through the night, which probably would have been too much to expect, but he is only up once or twice now and barks less. And when he barks, he seems to want/need something concrete, like to be taken outside or more water. Luckily I can sleep late if he has me up in the middle of the night, so I'm getting 6 or more hours a night now (rather than 4), which makes life more livable. I hope this will last for awhile!
How is your girl doing, Marisa?Posted 1 month ago #
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